Query Post #2

[crantz]

Hi, everyone! Here's the second round of queries for the nominations (go nominate here!)

Fandom: Abrahamic Religions

Characters:
Adam (Abrahamic Religions)
Chava | Eve | Hawwa' (Abrahamic Religions)
Lilit | Lilith (Abrahamic Religions)

ISSUE: This is too broad. Could you please narrow this down to a specific name or source text you're working from?

Fandom: Ancient Greek Religion & Lore

Characters:
Cerberus (Ancient Greek Religion & Lore)
Demeter (Ancient Greek Religion & Lore)
Hades (Ancient Greek Religion & Lore)
Persephone (Ancient Greek Religion & Lore)

ISSUE: The Hymn to Demeter has already been nominated, with Hades, Demeter, Persephone, and Hecate. Did you want something different? Thought Cerberus is not named in the Hymn, he is referenced in the line "And she [Demeter] was visited by grief [akhos] that was even more terrible than before: it makes you think of the Hound of Hadês," so we would keep him in - but you're welcome to choose another story that gives more information about him.

Fandom: Kojiki (An Account of Ancient Matters)

Characters:
Awashima (Awashima (Nurarihyon no Mago))
Hiruko
Izanagi
Izanami

ISSUE: This is a fascinating looking text but quite large, and it appears to contain many unrelated stories. Could you help us narrow down which part(s) you're using so we know what to link? And if the characters are from more than one story, we'll need you to select a specific one from within this set of texts.

Fandom:Norse Religion & Lore

Characters:
Askr | Ask (Norse Religion & Lore)
Embla (Norse Religion & Lore)

ISSUE: This is too broad. Could you please narrow this down to a specific name or source text you're working from?

Fandom: Swan Lake & Related Fandoms

Characters:
Odette (Swan Lake)
Odile (Swan Lake)

ISSUE: Fandoms for this exchange need to be based on written texts, so unfortunately we will not accept this ballet. Please choose something else.


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Comments

[sonofgodzilla]

This is almost completely me, sorry!

So, I was specifically think of The Alphabet of Ben Sira for Lilith, as sheis not as clearly defined in the Talmud.

The Kojiki is a little difficult, but I was thinking of the story of the first ill-fated attempt to populate the world by the first humans. I am struggling to find a good translation of this section as this version has a lot of unnecessary Latin! I will try and find a better source after work.

The last one is easier, I was thinking specifically of the Prose Edda.

Sorry for being such a dunce. I will go sit in the corner now.

[morbane]

Thanks! That's very helpful!

Awkwardly, Eve doesn't seem to be named in the Alphabet of Ben Sira version, though she's obviously heavily implied. Any suggestions to get around that?

[sonofgodzilla]

Ah, I knew I shouldn't have done this whilst half asleep and operating solely on vague memories of stories overheard. I want to suggest using the Bereshit Rabbah, which is a midrash collection, but this has the reverse problem in that Lilith is only named "the First Eve". If there was a section for just, say, Jewish midrashim, that would be my ideal solution as that would the Alphabet, the Rabbah, and the Babylonian Talmud as reference? But I feel I am asking too much with this, so I'd equally settle for something exploring Adam and Lilith's relationship solely.

[morbane]

A specific text is very helpful! I'm having a little trouble searching the Bereshit Rabbah (thank you for the link! this is definitely my bad, not yours) - could you narrow down where the tale appears? 'The First Eve' would be OK, I think. But yeah, if you'd rather just concentrate on Adam and Lilith and the amazing account in the Ben Sira text (100 kids killed per day? !!!), let's stick with that.

[sonofgodzilla]

Midrash is awkward, I don't really always understand it, but the way I think of all Jewish history is as a conversation, thus in Bereshit Rabbah 22 you can literally read different ancient rabbis arguing across the decades at each other over the fate of "the first Eve." It's very difficult because it's both commentary and folklore and accepted belief, but you have to know what's being discussed in the first place.

But I sing the praises of Lilith in whatever medium she might appear, so I would be more than happy nominating something that explores the dynamic between her and Adam alone without bringing in Eve (or even touching on the Nameless Bride, Adam's second wife) because Lilith is amazing full stop, and I'm happy either way!

Ugh. Sorry I kind of turned this whole thread into like Dreamwidth yeshiva.

[crantz]

I see the issue with the Latin! Weird that they'd put it like that when all the notes are in English. If you can't find a better source, we can try to find a solution with that.

See: Morbane with the Eve comment.

But you are not a dunce! This happens every exchange, it's not the end of world.

[sonofgodzilla]

I've found a "better" source, but it's still far from perfect. In it Hiruko is simply called "leech child" and Awashima, who traditions holds is both an island and a personification, is just called... Apa? I have no idea why that is. There are some further details in the Nihon Shoki which are similar but different, like the two creation myths of Genesis.

This article is a really interesting yet brief summation, if it helps?

I feel really bad for causing all these problems!

[crantz]

I will totally accept this source - how about we | the name (Awashima | Apa) to be clear which personage you mean.

And the fact you replied so quickly and helpfully makes up for anything, trust me.

[sonofgodzilla]

you're far too kind and gracious, thank you so, so much. Sorry though for making such a hash of my nominations but I'm super happy that Awashima, even though they've been forgotten by the centuries, will be remembered in this little exchange!

[alexseanchai]

La Belle et la Bête | The Beauty and the Beast - Gabrielle-Suzanne Barbot de Villeneuve

Snowdrop - Grimm Brothers (it's Snow White, really)

Snow-white and Rose-red - Grimm Brothers

Frog Prince - Grimm Brothers

[crantz]

Awesome! Thank you for the links - your noms have been approved!